Wednesday, September 1, 2010

Government Is a Tool; It's Not Your Daddy.

Michael Tomasky recently wrote a good essay for The Guardian that suggests a better way to view the relationship we have with our government.

Excerpt:

"The two problems here are, first, that while they (tea party supporters) think they owe government nothing, they actually owe government a great deal. If they're small business people, they depend on the freight rails and the roadways and the utilities and the regulation of interstate commerce and the laws that keep their crooked competitors from undercutting them and the courts' abilities to enforce those laws. Without question the government is an annoyance in their lives in dozens of ways. But they don't see any of the good, only the bad. If you tote it up, the government helps them a lot more than it hurts them, and if they think not, let them go open a hardware store in downtown Mogadishu and see how that works out.

The second problem is the one I saw manifest at that dinner that night. Everybody in this country isn't like you. Yes, you worked hard to get where you are. But the vast majority of people work hard. Some have good luck, some have bad. Some stay healthy, some get sick. Some make only wise decisions, some make an unwise one. Some benefit from free-market oddities and inequities, some lose. And yes, some, because of history or birth circumstances, started the race at a starting line several paces back from the one where you started. Part of citizenship, a crucial part of citizenship, is standing in their shoes for a few moments – as they must stand in yours, and understand your point of view too."



The thing that is so surprising about certain folks' polarized views about what government can be used for is that it is so short-sighted, and seems to indicate a certain amount of self-distrust. Every relationship need not be of a parent/child nature. Government is a tool; you can use a hammer to bash someone's head in, sure, but most often, hammers are used productively. To drive in nails. To build.

Now, the skill level of the craftsman using the hammer is a completely different matter, but we need to be more conscious of false choices that certain members of the media (whose job security depends on you accepting their premise) present us with. It's not 'Government is the Savior versus Government is Cthulhu', as Glenn Beck would have you believe. It's 'Can government assist us in this task, or can it not?'

Trust me; my choice structure will be much more useful to you than Glenn Beck's will (although it may put Glenn out of a job).

24 comments:

Jerry Mulholland said...

I will agree with you that the people of the Tea Party agree that the people of the United States owe the government nothing, however, they understand that the common good that the government is suppose to promote should and must be funded. Roads are to be paid for by excise taxes on gas and tires, which is paid by the users. Security via the military, etc. Railroads (except Amtrack the goverment run albatros) are privately owned and maintained by thier users. The government did help procure leases for land to run the tracks. You say the government is a tool and compare it to a hammer. Some Tea Party people may agree that it is a tool but believe the hammer has become a ten ton wrecking ball, and no matter how delicately you try to drive a finishing nail, you destroy what you are trying to build. Worse the government is wasteful and in many ways a parasite, drawing its life and growth from the people and at times at the cost of the host. When the government can take more than half of your earnings, insist you buy a product or they can seize all that you own and imprison you if you find this wrong and refuse, the government has become a 50 foot 18 inch diameter leech that will drain the host in seconds. When all is done and all the producers are drained, all we have left is the leech. A leech that does not produce, does not provide for justice and destroys liberty. I don't know of any Tea Party supporter that wants the government destroyed, they just want limits, they want it not to waste, and they want it not to take freedom. Current studies shows that the government wastes 63% of every dollar they steal from its people, imagine what they could fund by eliminating the waste. Taxes inhibit the economy, employment and freedom, I would like more of all three and less government would make this happen.

the elegant ape said...

90% of those tricorned hat wearing miscreants are pulling govt checks or medicare or Medicaid or have benefited from the GI bill or others govt benefits. The fact half of them have teeth in their heads is do to fluoridation which earlier wingnuts fought tooth and nail as a (commie conspiracy)Tax levels are at 1970 levels. If we could dare pull off some of the half a trillion we spend on defense(the biggest mistake Truman ever made was changing it from dept of war to dept of defense) we might stand a chance.

Willie Y said...

I am for the government taking care of more things in our life, like protecting our food and making rules that protect us from company's and corporations that don't have the general populations safety as a first priority. Yes we can clean up a lot of the waist, and that would be a good thing. But what I hear from the tea party is mostly a lot of crap. Once they start to discuss substantial issues and denounce the morons who call our president a Muslim and not a citizen, maybe they will be taken a little more seriously by me and other people.

Alex, Tea Party Member Atlanta said...

Tax revenues are down because the economy took a dive, but tax rates are substantially higher and this administration wants them to go even higher. People are not making as much money so they are not paying as much even though they are paying more by percentage. The Tea Party only discusses substantial issues such as scaling down the government, taxes, government waste and the economy. The Tea Party is being blamed again for something they do not believe, condone or discuss as an organization. The Tea Party is staying on message and do not need to denounce what an individual believes or says that is not an official message of the Tea Party. The survey said 18% of AMERICANS believe the President is a Muslim. The Tea Party has not taken a position on the President's citizenship or lack there of. The President, according to polls, deserves most of the blame for the perception, even from people that believe he is an American Christian. The Tea Party is only interested in dealing with and addressing his policies, not his religion. Most of the Tea Party members have jobs and are disgusted at the government waste and how much the government takes from them. Yes, you can interview any group of people and find some wingnut ideas (see Mr. Ape) but this kind of slander is not useful or productive. I ask that you stay on the issues as well. We say the government is too big, wastes too much money and taxes are too high. Discuss these issues and the Tea Party will give you an opinion.

Spencer Troxell said...

"If we could dare pull off some of the half a trillion we spend on defense(the biggest mistake Truman ever made was changing it from dept of war to dept of defense)..."

It's a shame that the Grayson/Paul 'War Is making You Poor Act' hasn't received more support. We can be fiscally responsible and still preserve the welfare state; we just have to be efficient, and promote accountability.

the elegant ape said...

I am amazed and overcome by the new found economic outrage expressed by the tea party and the like. During the cheney/bush admin a twelve trillion dollar debt was run up which included a seven trillion dollar prescription drug
drug benefit as well as two wars fought off budget that will run with legacy costs at this point around five trillion dollars.
At the close of this august administration which started with a 500 billion surplus. The entire banking, automotive manufacturing and housing sectors were left in a complete smoking ruin.
During those eight years banking was completely deregulated as well as the oil cartels which gave us some much fun over the last two years.
But by all means let us concentrate on the social safety net or unemployment benefits.
Instead of the fact that two out of every three United States corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1998 through 2005, according to a report released Tuesday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress.
Or that professional fund managers of hedge funds and private equity firms are allowed to treat a substantial portion of their compensation as capital gains, meaning they are most likely taxed at 15% rather than the 35% rate that applies to ordinary income such as wages and salary.
Since the end of the Eisenhower administration in 1961 till present the two biggest expansions of government have occurred under the two terms of Reagan and Bush the lesser. The largest contraction of government was under
the great and terrible Bill Clinton.
But don't let facts impede you. Take to the streets and howl about the maltreatment and disfranchisement of the white christian minority. (who currently hold ninety percent of all elected offices)
Gird your loins! Grab your pitchforks! The dark night of socialism is upon you!

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

There is no new outrage, it has gotten to the point where we can't be quiet any longer. We are against the wasteful government spending back to 1776. It's like a little kid throwing poppers at you, it's annoying, he starts throwing firecrackers you get angry, now he's throwing 1/2 sticks of dynamite, it's time to stop it before it becomes pounds of C4. The Bush debt took eight years and has been exceeded by Obama and the Democratic congress in 6 months. Bill Clintons great retraction of government took place because of the the Republican congress NOT the Democrat president. The Tea Party does not put the all the blame for the federal woes on the President. The legislature holds more than half the blame, THEY WRITE THE BILLS. In fact, it is Congress that is responsible for the housing bubble which has hurt our economy, which is another example of why government is too big. Yes because our tax system is so screwed up and made to NOT treat people equally, and is to punish many, there are examples where people are paying less in taxes than YOU think they should. If you really want to increase money to the government, help the economy, and promote freedom you would be pro flat tax and against sin taxes. The government should not try to control behavior via taxes. Imagine a guy makes a million dollars and pays ten thousand in taxes with out any deductions available. The government then could budget because they would have a good idea of what was coming in. Further the national highway system and many other civilian perks are the direct result of military spending, Eisenhower was able to establish the national highway system as a military project to allow rapid movement of troops from one coast to the other. Much of the life saving technologies and advancements in science are directly due to military spending not from the goodwill of people. The fact still remains, the goverment is too big, spends too much and taxes are too high regardless of your racist attitudes toward the office holders and those who oppose them.

the elegant ape said...

If the great government retraction occurred because of the Republican congress and not the Clinton Administration then the first six years of the Bush administration should have been a field day for low growth small government conservatives.
Alas. No.
A explosion in government spending and growth dwarfing even Johnson's new deal programs.

A economy teetering on collapse was on Obama's doorstep the day he took office. And if McCain had won even with the massive Palin intellect at his beck and call would it have been different? It is going to take a generation to dig out of the hole left by shrub and his sharpshooter vp.

Today if you net more then a million a year you pay on the average a two percent tax rate.
Not a bad gig if you got the scratch.
Since Reagan, the only income group to make constant gains were the top tier. Other groups stagnated or lost ground.
The Bush tax cuts left a one point five trillion dollar hole.
Unpaid for.
Where were the funny hats and protests? Signs of Bush portraying him as the joker or Hitler? Marches on Washington? This was about five hundred billion more then health care reform.
Yet nothing but blissful silence. The conservative uprising slept undisturbed waiting for truly wasteful spending on things like chip and food stamps.

Defense, interest on the debt, social security is 60% of the budget. Another 21% is Medicaid and medicare. That's 81% of the federal budget that is pretty much untouchable.
That leaves 19% that's discretionary.
I'm all for tax cuts. I work hard. Where you going to cut? I never see anythings on the many signs or placards. Maybe Mrs. Palin will enlighten me through her all knowing facebook postings or tweets.(maybe it written in her hand.)
Conservatives love to cut taxes but paying for them is something that they run a little short on.
Or maybe Dick Cheney was right.
When O'Neill to warn Vice President Dick Cheney that growing budget deficits-expected to top $500 billion this fiscal year and that alone-posed a threat to the economy. Cheney cut him off. "You know, Paul, Reagan proved deficits don't matter," he said, Cheney continued: "We won the midterms (congressional elections). This is our due." A month later, Cheney told the Treasury secretary he was fired

the elegant ape said...

Not to belabor a point. I know five hundred billion is a conservative talking point. Put with the prescription drug benefit(unpaid for) Tax cuts (unfunded)
and two wars (off budget) The deficit was actually 12 trillion. But don't let facts get in the way of contrived hysteria...

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

First most of what you have said I cannot find any data to support. Yes it was the Republican congress that helped Clinton lower the deficit, while the Republican Congress for the Bush years did not help and the Democratic congress for the remainder did worse. All data I can find shows that the current administration doubled the deficit and accomplished nothing for it. The final numbers of the deficit include all unfunded mandates. If you are as angry at the spending as you seem to be, you should be fighting against this escalation of government as well. Also, the stimulus cost more than the entire war, tax cuts cannot be unfunded because it is not the governments money, it is a reduction in theft from the people, which again is beneficial to the economy and to freedom. A tax cut is not taking away from the government, it's the people keeping what they have EARNED. If a criminal steal $40 a day at gun point and then one day only steals $20, it is not a reduction in crime. Wreckless spending is bad from any administration, if your problem is with the timing of the outrage, that is an issue you will have to deal with. The current administration and congress have gone far above what previous have done, and the people have less jobs, less money, and less hope, that's some change to be believe in. If you look at government spending vs GDP Eisenhower looks good, Carter looks good, Reagan and Bush look horrible, CLinton looked bad until the Republican congress came in, Bush looked bad and again Obama doubled Bush's eight years in 6 months. Most of Reagan's was rebuilding a military devistated by Carter. Portraying Bush as Joker would not have happened because there was not the hoakey portaits to play upon. The left tried to paint Bush as Hitler before he finished the oath, the problem the left has is, it might actually apply now with Obama. Also, IF you can find someone that makes a million dollars and pays only two percent then you have reinforced the Tea Party belief that the tax system is screwed up and needs to be changed. If doing your taxes requires more than a post-it note it is too complicated and meant to hurt certain groups of people. The government is too big, spends too much and taxes are too high.

Willie Y said...

What would have happened if there were no stimulus? I guess you would think we should have done nothing and everything would be back to normal. The stimulus is helping, but it is slow. The financial and housing collapse has changed life as we know it for most people. Most people are are not putting themselves in debt with credit cards any longer. They are saving more, it is a different world. It's going to be a long time before we pull our self's out of this one. You guys think you have all the answers, but all I hear from the people that out front of the tea party, is nothing. They won't even answer a question from the press.

the elegant ape said...

Pesky pesky facts.

The Congressional Budget Office's preliminary cost estimates for Senate plans were higher than expected, and caused considerable consternation last week. But the fundamental fact is that we can afford universal health insurance — even those high estimates were less than the $1.8 trillion cost of the Bush tax cuts."

As of February 2010, approximately $700 billion had been spent on the war. This figure is based on current expenditure rates from figures compiled by the Congressional Research Service and estimates by Nobel Prize economist Joseph Stiglitz and Harvard University's Linda Bilmes. According to Stiglitz and Bilmes, the total cost of the Iraq war will probably exceed $3 trillion by moderate estimates

The burden of paying for the 400 billion dollar prescription drug plan will fall on those 30 years of age and under. In addition to the huge costs of the plan without new sources of revenue Part D will also lead to increased drug costs and further add to the insurmountable 7 trillion dollar debt.
K. Shane Keene MBA
Department of Allied Health Sciences
East Tennessee State University Randy L. Byington Ed.D.
Department of Allied Health Sciences
East Tennessee State University

But lets say the Iraq invasion was paid for by returnables.
And the tax cuts were covered by change found in the coach.
And the drug plan covered by the sale of don't tread on me flags,

Bush came into office with an advantage few presidents have enjoyed -- a $230 billion surplus.
At the end of his administration before President Obama took office or signed any legislation, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projected that, based on actions taken by President Bush and economic conditions at the time, the deficit for fiscal year 2009 would reach $1.2 trillion.
1.2 trillion +230billion = 1.43 trillion.
Oh, but those pesky, pesky facts.

But let's say for the sake of argument that the rich are overtaxed. That Bush was a thoughtful and deliberate executive bedeviled by evil scheming liberals doing the best to destroy mom,pop and the Good ole USA.
And out of the rubble rises on it's own violation(we will ignore the Koch brothers and faux news) the tea party movement to take the country back to the gold old days of Brylcreem , cars with fins and
duck and cover drills..
What I want to know Alex of Atlanta is what are you going to cut? What services are you going to do away with? The budget is close to four trillion. What are you going to cut specifically? Don't tell me the department of Education of the FDA.
We need big.
Going to do away with medicare? Half the hospitals in the country are on the verge of collapse due to er costs and unpaid bills.
Cut the defense budget?
It's only running half a trillion a year. But oops there is Al-Qaeda which has regrouped in the Pakistan tribal region while we were on holiday in Iraq and Let's not forget about Iran which is doing clever things with heavy water and centrifuges.

So Give something substantial. Being a progressive commie weenie I am hopelessly enthralled by figures and facts. So tell me what are you getting ride of?
(don't forget to put a little aside for that landscaping you all are so ramped up about on the southern border)

Spencer Troxell said...

Just an aside from a man in the crowd; The Elegant Ape is making the ladies quite giddy.

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

First let's start with quoting names and letter afterwards does not give your facts credibility if they are pregressively distorted. If they are correct, it sounds like you are saying that the government is too big and spending to much money but don't want to make choices. Why weren;t you protesting government spending eight years ago if you hated it so much, or did you just hate one person. Let's start with the small waste and work ourselves up to the bigger things, NPR, Public Broadcasting, pet projects such as libraries named after Senators. Then department of education and let the people in those areas fund it like thier property taxes are suppose to do. ELiminate the health care bill (Obamacare), there is not a Constitutional grounds for it and should be cut before it explodes like the housing market. Let's eliminate any department that has out lived their usefullness, let's look at every dime that goes in and goes out. Even those programs where you say you can't cut, there is savings to be had. Let's start by paying government workers prevailing wages since Obama has a pay Czar that should be easy. He wants to tell the rest of world how much they should be paid, let;s take back the government and tell them how much THEY should be paid. You are still focusing on a President that is no longer in office and what he has done is done, let's fix what we can now and stop the bleeding. I'm not saying the rich are over taxed, I'm saying our tax SYSTEM is screwed up and unless all people are treated equally, then there is no justice and the government is responisble. If you believe the government should take it because this group has it and you wanted used for your pet project, then you are as evil as any soviet government or nazi regime. What will you do when the government says you have too much and they are taking it because they know better how to use it. Should we line up the Jews and the blacks for the government to use the slave labor because they know better what to do with thier spare time or is their another group you think better to enslave? You are still not grasping, that it's not the government's money. Stealing less from the people is not a cut to the government, they have NO RIGHT TO OUR MONEY. WE OWE THEM NOTHING, WE EXPECT FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY AND THAT THEY SHOULD BE FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE. Roads are and should be funded by excise taxes of the people that use it, Social Security should be paid for because people have been paying in to it, but Congress has stolen the money for other uses. The government is not a magic bullet and has been the cause of EVERY FINANCIAL crisis, why should we trust them to fix what they have broken. Two years ago it was patriotic to criticize the administration, fashion should not change because the president has a D after his name. The President has sworn to tax anyone who makes more than he thinks they should, tax those who are paid by bonus rather than a traditional pay check, tax anyone who criticizes him and his policies, tax those who produce and hire the rest of us, tax small business, tax large business. His solution to everything is tax and regulate. The housing market had never had a bubble until Clinton and the Congress interfered. He now stands back and criticizes people for sitting on their money and not giving it to him as Biden said all patriots should do. The government is not the cure, and we can cut much of it away. The government is too big, they are spending too much and taxes are too high. You can criticize us for being late to the party, but we are here now trying to right what has been wrong for years. There is nothing stopping you from giving the government all that you have, if you truly believe they can do better with it than you. I, and many others do not believe it and choose to fight for freedom, justice, and our rights.

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

First let's start with quoting names and letter afterwards does not give your facts credibility if they are pregressively distorted. If they are correct, it sounds like you are saying that the government is too big and spending to much money but don't want to make choices. Why weren;t you protesting government spending eight years ago if you hated it so much, or did you just hate one person. Let's start with the small waste and work ourselves up to the bigger things, NPR, Public Broadcasting, pet projects such as libraries named after Senators. Then department of education and let the people in those areas fund it like thier property taxes are suppose to do. ELiminate the health care bill (Obamacare), there is not a Constitutional grounds for it and should be cut before it explodes like the housing market. Let's eliminate any department that has out lived their usefullness, let's look at every dime that goes in and goes out. Even those programs where you say you can't cut, there is savings to be had. Let's start by paying government workers prevailing wages since Obama has a pay Czar that should be easy. He wants to tell the rest of world how much they should be paid, let;s take back the government and tell them how much THEY should be paid. You are still focusing on a President that is no longer in office and what he has done is done, let's fix what we can now and stop the bleeding. I'm not saying the rich are over taxed, I'm saying our tax SYSTEM is screwed up and unless all people are treated equally, then there is no justice and the government is responisble. If you believe the government should take it because this group has it and you wanted used for your pet project, then you are as evil as any soviet government or nazi regime. What will you do when the government says you have too much and they are taking it because they know better how to use it. Should we line up the Jews and the blacks for the government to use the slave labor because they know better what to do with thier spare time or is their another group you think better to enslave? You are still not grasping, that it's not the government's money. Stealing less from the people is not a cut to the government, they have NO RIGHT TO OUR MONEY. WE OWE THEM NOTHING, WE EXPECT FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY AND THAT THEY SHOULD BE FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE. Roads are and should be funded by excise taxes of the people that use it, Social Security should be paid for because people have been paying in to it, but Congress has stolen the money for other uses. The government is not a magic bullet and has been the cause of EVERY FINANCIAL crisis, why should we trust them to fix what they have broken. Two years ago it was patriotic to criticize the administration, fashion should not change because the president has a D after his name. The President has sworn to tax anyone who makes more than he thinks they should, tax those who are paid by bonus rather than a traditional pay check, tax anyone who criticizes him and his policies, tax those who produce and hire the rest of us, tax small business, tax large business. His solution to everything is tax and regulate. The housing market had never had a bubble until Clinton and the Congress interfered. He now stands back and criticizes people for sitting on their money and not giving it to him as Biden said all patriots should do. The government is not the cure, and we can cut much of it away. The government is too big, they are spending too much and taxes are too high. You can criticize us for being late to the party, but we are here now trying to right what has been wrong for years. There is nothing stopping you from giving the government all that you have, if you truly believe they can do better with it than you. I, and many others do not believe it and choose to fight for freedom, justice, and our rights.

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

One more thing, do you really belive the stimulis did anything but line the pockets of Freinds of Obama? Do you believe that they created hundreds or thousands of jobs in districts that don't exist? Do you believe that they went from creating thousands of jobs to saving thousands of jobs? Do you believe that they can prove the jobs they saved? Do you believe in neverland? If so, set up your koolaid stand, you are in to deep.

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

Also, even if we can afford, Obamacare, the government should not be doing it. There is not a Constitutional precident for it, and it does not promote freedom. The cost keeps going up, the CBO has said so, and if we are out of money then we cannot afford it, even if it was free. A ten cent cup of coffee is too expensive for a man with no money and the the federal government could be 12 trillion in debt by the end of his first term. There is no money, there is no money. They are broke and instead of getting out of the way to create jobs, they want to tax and tax and tax and tax and tax and tax and tax and tax and tax and tax and tax...

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

Willie, Most ligitimate economists will tell you uncertainty is the biggesthinderence to the economy. There are so many taxes, cap and trade, Obamacare, expiration of tax cuts that are up in the air, so many government penalties, so many vilifications of industries, that people that could really stimulate the economy, create jobs, are afraid to do anything. If you had a million dollars sitting in the bank earning 3% and know you could keep most of it, or you could spend it in a normal economy without taxes on energy and earn 8% or look at what this adminstration is offering and invest it and possibly lose 2%. It;s an easy choice, sit on it until the environment makes sense to invest, an environment where you can get a reasonable return on the money you are risking. Every time you put a dollar into a business, there is no guarantee that you will make a dollar or not lose the dollar invested. If you are only looking at breaking even because of government taxes and increased overhead because of government taxes why risk the money. There is no eveidence, NONE, that the stimulus wasn't just pissed away and nothing created or saved. The admisnstation promised "pass the stimulus and unemployment won't go over 6%", we are and 9.6%. Either he is a lousey economist and shouldn't be trusted or he is a lier and shouldn't be trusted. Everything he has done has been counter to what all but theoretical economist believe, maybe it is time to get back to reality and get more people jobs, make more people wealthy, so the government can steal more and everything will be back to something more normal. Then we can work towards a truly fair and realistic tax system that promotes the economy and doesn't punish you if you cross some magic arbitrary line established by those who know better what to do with the money you earn than you.

the elegant ape said...

Let's say for the sake of argument we slash all the programs you have highlighted.
According to the 2005 financial statement, NPR makes just over half of its money from the fees and dues it charges member stations to receive programming. Public funding accounts for 16% of the average member station's revenue, with 10% of this coming in the form of grants from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. So that's six percent
from tax dollars. Six percent of 153 million. $980000.
Twelve billion a year is spent on a libraries in the country. The entire of obamacare 900 billion. Add this to all government service salaries, snow removal road maintenance, dams , dept of agriculture, FAA, CDC , post office ect.
That comes to eleven percent of the excising budget.
Eleven percent.

In 2020 the majority of baby boomers will retire. Buy 2030 the costs of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security will double.
And you are squawking about NPR?
The medical industry is collapsing as I sit here and write this. Not going to collapse but is collapsing.
I have worked in some of the major medical centers in the Northeast. And the are just shifting numbers to keep the doors open.

Here’s the raw fact, from the National Health Expenditure data: since 1970 Medicare costs per beneficiary have risen at an annual rate of 8.8% — but insurance premiums have risen at an annual rate of 9.9%. The rise in Medicare costs is just part of the overall rise in health care spending. And in fact Medicare spending has lagged private spending: if insurance premiums had risen “only” as much as Medicare spending, they’d be 1/3 lower than they are.
And Medicare is a unmitigated nightmare.

The tea party and other conservative groups are living in a self propagating illusion. You want lower taxes there are three areas that will have to be cut and cut drastically. Social security, Medicaid and Medicaid and Defense.
And Yet I hear nothing.
As you stated earlier republicans held congress for ten years, and the white house for eight and cut no major programs.
None!
So as much as you enjoy wallowing in your pseudo neo patriotic revolutionary zeitgeist. Brandishing replica musket loaders and wailing to the heavens about being the down trodden and abused.
It comes across as a little weak.
But by all means continue. It's entertaining.

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

The government creates nothing, it is a parasite that only seeks to grow itself. If you are so outraged at the spending of the previous administration, you should be blinded with rage at this administration and should join our fight. We do not care if it is a republican or democrat, we do not care what color thier skin, we do not care their heritage, the government is too big, they spend too much, and taxes are too high. If you believe the Clinton adminsistration was paradise, then let's take it further and all enjoy the freedom and the privelage the Constitution provides and hold all accountable for the mis-management. It seems you are fighting against the idea of the Tea Party for some unknown reason. Do you have a problem with the government wasting money, then you should be with us. Do you have a problem with the government overtaxing some while giving a free ride to others, then you should be with us. You attack a group that only wants the government accountable for what they take and spend. The government and the law hold you accountable for what you take and what you spend, shouldn't they be held to the same standard? Instead of objection, become part of the solution to stop the waste and enjoy the freedom from a government that wished to control through taxes. Other wise, turn over everything to government, become their slave as you are prescribing for everyone else and shut up. There is nothing in our position that you can't disagree with any honesty. Do you want a government that wastes money, do you want a government that continues to take from it's people because they know better than you on how to spend what you have earned, do you want to pay homage to a government that can decide we don't like a behavior so we will tax it more. Why should the government make more on cigarettes and alcohol than those who make it. If the government stopped these taxes, the workers at those plants could have more, and people would have more of thier own money. The government is too big, they spend too much and taxes are too high.

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

For some reason the first part of my response disappeared so here it goes again. After some research, the only collapse of a healthcare system in the North East is Great Britain which is what Obamacare would like to be. In the United States there is not a collpse for the future under our current system. However, I was able to find several healthcare facilities that have closed because of Obamacare and several that will close because the government mandates and regulations will make it impossible for them to survive, so they are closing thier doors and retiring when applicalbe and laying off the works that cannot afford to retire. Again all because of Obamacare. NCR, IBM, Hewlett Packard and many other large companies have announced they will cut jobs to pay for Obamacare. Earlier this year Obama had said the companies would save so much money they could give raises. My company has announced a 28% increase in insurance costs because of Obamacare. I also found others healthcare facilities that are failing because of mismanagement, not because of the system. I have said before that the Tea Party believes the government can be cut and waste removed and I say again, let's start by cutting the the useless things like, NPR, the public broadcasting and then move up to the ones we cannot eliminate and start looking for waste and ways to operate efficiently and save money. Snow removal, much in the way of maintencance is done by local government and each town can judge how much they want to spend. Don't tax Arizona to remove snow in Maine. Much of the FAA is supported by PRIVATE airlines taxes and the military, Dams fall under the Corp (corpse according to Obama) of Engineers, a part of military funding. You do not hear what the Tea Party says to cut because you are not listening. You keep ranting against Republicans, when I have said they have screwed up too. There is nothing to argue about with that, I agree and the Tea Party agrees, Republicans have messed it up as well. If you need it said again before you hear it, let me know and I'll say it again. Untill we have a time machine, we can't make what anyone has done in the past NOT HAPPEN. We can, however fight against what's going on now and work to roll back all the wasteful spending of EVERY ADMINISTRATION in the past. We need to stop all wasteful spending first and then go after what is in place and where we can't kill the program, we can trim fat, cut waste and streamline, THERE ARE NO SACRED COWS. If your argument against the Tea Party is you don't like the Revolutionary dress of some and want to discount the argument based on that, I can only assume you don't want to discuss ideas. Muskets are a generic term applied to long guns that are muzzleloaders. Again, we don't claim to be down trodden, abused, we claim we have a wasteful government that is too large, interferes in our lives too much and taxes way too much. That is the argument and that is our only argument. Again let's get rid of any unessecary spending like NPR and on other sacred cows that can't be eliminated, let's find ways to save money. I don't know how to make it more clear.

Recap: There has been wasteful spending by ALL Congresses and Administrations regardless of party affiliation.

We want to stop what the current group is doing because we can't stop what was done in the past.

We want to then repeal or remove any and all wasteful spending that is already in place, regardless of who signed the bill and which congress passed it.

Anything that cannot be repealed or removed can have waste eliminated, and other streamlining to save money.

Taxes are to be lowered for everybody so ALL Americans can keep money that they worked hard to aquire.

It boils down to the government is too big, they spend too much and we are taxed too much.

If wearing a funny hat and carrying a muzzleloader is entertaining, then good. We are entertained as well. A little humor never hurt, and it doesn't take away from the argument.

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

For some reason the first part of my response disappeared so here it goes again. After some research, the only collapse of a healthcare system in the North East is Great Britain which is what Obamacare would like to be. In the United States there is not a collpse for the future under our current system. However, I was able to find several healthcare facilities that have closed because of Obamacare and several that will close because the government mandates and regulations will make it impossible for them to survive, so they are closing thier doors and retiring when applicalbe and laying off the works that cannot afford to retire. Again all because of Obamacare. NCR, IBM, Hewlett Packard and many other large companies have announced they will cut jobs to pay for Obamacare. Earlier this year Obama had said the companies would save so much money they could give raises. My company has announced a 28% increase in insurance costs because of Obamacare. I also found others healthcare facilities that are failing because of mismanagement, not because of the system. I have said before that the Tea Party believes the government can be cut and waste removed and I say again, let's start by cutting the the useless things like, NPR, the public broadcasting and then move up to the ones we cannot eliminate and start looking for waste and ways to operate efficiently and save money. Snow removal, much in the way of maintencance is done by local government and each town can judge how much they want to spend. Don't tax Arizona to remove snow in Maine. Much of the FAA is supported by PRIVATE airlines taxes and the military, Dams fall under the Corp (corpse according to Obama) of Engineers, a part of military funding. You do not hear what the Tea Party says to cut because you are not listening. You keep ranting against Republicans, when I have said they have screwed up too. There is nothing to argue about with that, I agree and the Tea Party agrees, Republicans have messed it up as well. If you need it said again before you hear it, let me know and I'll say it again. Untill we have a time machine, we can't make what anyone has done in the past NOT HAPPEN. We can, however fight against what's going on now and work to roll back all the wasteful spending of EVERY ADMINISTRATION in the past. We need to stop all wasteful spending first and then go after what is in place and where we can't kill the program, we can trim fat, cut waste and streamline, THERE ARE NO SACRED COWS. If your argument against the Tea Party is you don't like the Revolutionary dress of some and want to discount the argument based on that, I can only assume you don't want to discuss ideas. Muskets are a generic term applied to long guns that are muzzleloaders. Again, we don't claim to be down trodden, abused, we claim we have a wasteful government that is too large, interferes in our lives too much and taxes way too much. That is the argument and that is our only argument. Again let's get rid of any unessecary spending like NPR and on other sacred cows that can't be eliminated, let's find ways to save money. I don't know how to make it more clear.

Recap: There has been wasteful spending by ALL Congresses and Administrations regardless of party affiliation.

We want to stop what the current group is doing because we can't stop what was done in the past.

We want to then repeal or remove any and all wasteful spending that is already in place, regardless of who signed the bill and which congress passed it.

Anything that cannot be repealed or removed can have waste eliminated, and other streamlining to save money.

Taxes are to be lowered for everybody so ALL Americans can keep money that they worked hard to aquire.

It boils down to the government is too big, they spend too much and we are taxed too much.

If wearing a funny hat and carrying a muzzleloader is entertaining, then good. We are entertained as well. A little humor never hurt, and it doesn't take away from the argument.

the elegant ape said...

Brother Alex,
you remind me of my seven year old and the mp3. I get it, he digs jack johnson but do I have to hear the same song over and over again.
Cutting waste, streamlining programs are all just talking points. Discretionary spending is about to got the way of the high button shoes.
The reason republicans are so easy to hit over the head is they increse spending while braying about tax cuts.
So little Alex you have three areas to pick.
Social security, medicare, defense .
Which is it?
Grannie eatting goverment cheese with the heat turned off?
Grandpa dying of spesis in his bed because of a broken hip?
Or pulling ouit of all military commitments beyond our borders?
Those are it.
no others.
Pick...

Alex, Tea Party, Atlanta said...

Brother Ape,
You remind me of child with his fingers in his ears yelling LALALALA, because you don't want to hear the possibilities. I reject your assertion that if you find savings in these programs grandma will be eating dog food while living in the closet afraid of the communist invasion. Your argument is lazy, pathetic, liberal tripe that has been re-introduced year after year after year without merit. I beleive we can look at the administrative aspects of all of these programs and save billions before we even look at any benefits distribution. If we make government workers accountable for performance like their private counterparts we can probable reduce adminstrative costs by a third. If we make all branches of the military interoperable as the study suggest, there is another 6-8 billion dollars. Obama has suggested raising the retirement age to save money, Obamacare says it can save billions by cutting waste. If a democrat says there is waste it must be terrible. Those are not our only choices, and its ridiculus to say so, the results can be better benefits at less cost. How about we let the rich opt out of Social security for a tax break on money taken out of their IRA or 401K. Your pathetic argument says you believe the government is doing things perfectly and there is no waste, no excessive overhead and no corruption. No one can truly believe this. So to bring it down to your level I pick all three, to make them better, more efficient, and with possibly better benefits. Turning on the MP3; The government is too big, spends too much and taxes are too high.